But politics is and must remain a secular occupation. Politicians represent a population that espouses all faiths and none. Their representatives can, of course, hold private religious conviction but, in my view, politicians should not deploy their faith to persuade us of their moral rectitude.Colette Douglas Home has summed up my own view pretty succinctly there; we don't and shouldn't put restrictions on a politician's religious and moral beliefs. However, how those beliefs will affect their political policies is very much the electorate's business and those offering themselves up for political office have a duty to be 100% upfront on how they will vote on such related matters as womens' reproductive rights, single-faith/segregated schooling etc.
We can judge that for ourselves; by their actions, by the way they vote and conduct themselves.
The SNP candidate in the up- coming by-election in Glasgow insists his membership of the ultra Catholic Opus Dei remains a private matter - of no significance to the electorate.
And it is a private matter - up to the point where Opus Dei's beliefs affect the social policies he will be asked to vote on. If on issues such as homosexuality and women's rights, they are in conflict with views held by the majority of his electorate, the voters should know before the election.
So, following that through in a specific Northern Irish context, a member of the Orange Order has as much right to offer himself up for political office as a member of Opus Dei or indeed the National Secular Society Having done so though, then he/she's got to be completely open as to how his membership of that organisation could not only affect his vote on certain moral and cultural questions, but also his role as a public representative in a society still divided in many ways along sectarian lines. The last part is especially important for members of the Orange Order who may be selected to fight for the Conservatives and Unionists at the next Westminster election. In May, David Cameron had this to say on the subject:
"I think the point is that the Ulster Unionist Party has broken its links with the Orange Order and what I’m trying to do with the UUP is not look backwards, but look forwards and say we can build a new force in Northern Ireland…which can attract people irrespective of which church they go to or how they worship God or which part of the community they come from."He's not saying there OO members shouldn't be a part of that "new force"...but he is stressing that the kind of politics being promoted is to be an inclusive one, not based on the traditional, communal lines.
I've got no idea how the selection procedure for Westminster candidates is presently being worked out between the Conservatives and Unionists in Northern Ireland, the three questions below would seem relevant in the circumstances:
1. If an Orange Order member is selected, they surely must also have to buy into that more tricky element of "change" promised in the above quotation by Cameron (the first, the promotion of a UK-wide politics within NI should be a pre-requisite for any Unionist anyway)?
2. Are there occasions when rules of the Order would restrict the performance we should expect from our MP, MLA, Councillor etc?
3.Membership of the OO definitely places a candidate in a certain "segment of the community", how does the candidate propose to appeal beyond that segment?
If an Orange Order member is putting himself up for election for a party promising change and a new kind of UK-based politics for Northern Ireland, the questions above seem fair ones.
18 comments:
Just to clarify. I am not a member of the Loyal Orders. However I am a supporter of the Conservative and Unionists.
Ultimately a candidates membership of any organisation is meaningless. What matters are the convictions behind their membership. Does it matter whether someone is in Opus Dei or not if they believe in what Opus Dei stands for. The issue is not membership the issue as you put it is "how those beliefs will affect their political policies" Beliefs not membership are at the core of the issue.
I agree about your comments on openness but they have to go further. I have come across many in my political life who avoid membership of contravershal organisations even when they fully support their aims. Fundamentally I think politicans have to be open to the morals and principles which drive them.
In relation to your point about representing a divided and diverse society I think it is vital that an MP conducts their self in a way that makes their constituents, regardless of background, comfortable to seek their help. However you will never get a candidate who represents everyone’s views that’s why we have competitive elections. A logical extension of this principle is that if you are representing an area with a large Christian population (like many areas within Northern Ireland) then it is not unreasonable for your constituents to ask you to represent their social, economic political outlook etc. It would not be essential for the MP themself to be a church goer but if the constituency feels a certain way about issues like, abortion, human rights, social justice etc and this is motivated by religious beliefs then the MP would be best advised to represent their constituent’s views
As for your point about the Orange Order I don’t really think it is relevant. The Orange Order is a fairly orthodox protestant Christian Religious Order. The order is not itself any more sectarian than the Anglican or Presbyterian Churches and indeed expresses almost identical doctrine to do with Catholicism as many protestant churches. The problem that exists is that in the eyes of many the order is perceived as sectarian. I believe it is crucial for the survival of the order itself that this perception is changed and it is certainly going to be an issue for the Conservative and Unionists who have made it clear that they will be actively seeking to unite both of Northern Irelands communities behind a pro-union banner.
However in closing I would like to add that there are many within the orange order who recognise this perception and are actively trying to challenge it. The Orange Order have recently carried out cross community educational events in Catholic schools to present a new face of the order that is not threatening to the catholic community. Perhaps efforts like this will bear fruit.
Very gently and soul searchingly put but the subtext is pretty much anyone new (ie not too far up the food chain to do over) who isn't an OO member needn't bother applying.
Membership of the Orange order simply isnt a factor as far as I experienced. I have never been asked any questions about my reigious beliefs or membership of any religious organisation.
The Orange has much to commend it and membership of the orange will be no barrier to candidates. I think both parties have made this clear
Boxer,
I think you're arguing as a C&U political activist, rather than putting yourself in the shoes of a potential C&U voter. I would disagree with you on this:
It would not be essential for the MP themself to be a church goer but if the constituency feels a certain way about issues like, abortion, human rights, social justice etc and this is motivated by religious beliefs then the MP would be best advised to represent their constituent’s views
Such issues should be entirely matters of personal conscience, both on the part of the individual voter and the prospective candidate. The latter has a responsibility to be completely open about his opinion on such issues, the electorate then can decide how much importance on his stance in terms of deciding whether or not to vote for him/her.
Very gently and soul searchingly put but the subtext is pretty much anyone new (ie not too far up the food chain to do over) who isn't an OO member needn't bother applying.
FD
Not at all, if there is a subtext it was provoked by Tom Elliott’s (who’s reasonably high up the food chain) comment here:
http://tinyurl.com/qmw6x6
“This is a pattern we (UCUNF) want to break by offering people a new choice. Things will not drastically change in a short time period, but given time and progress within Northern Ireland, we will be working to convince voters from a Roman Catholic background that their interests are best served within the United Kingdom rather than an all-Ireland set up”
If they are “Orange”, won't he, Reg, or any other of the candidates have a harder job to challenge the perceptions/prejudices of the wider electorate to do that convincing? Not all clear there is a strategy to deal with that, but it is surely an issue that needs to be addressed?
Cameron is good on narrative:
"I think the point is that the Ulster Unionist Party has broken its links with the Orange Order"
The truth is that the Order broke the links with the UUP. There is a clear distinction and importance to that fact - before the myth making takes off.
Oneill
The subtext comes from the fact your questions are centred on the prospective candidate to disprove/argue/demonstrate how their personal linkage will not be an organisational liability. There is not a presumption of 'innocence'.
'The Orange Order is a fairly orthodox protestant Christian Religious Order'
Perhaps the Black however is nuts.
Indeed many Christians are horrified by the widespread use of ritualistic and superstituous practices in both the Orange and the Black
http://www.nireland.com/evangelicaltruth/index.html
I believe it is a contradiction to call oneself a Christian and have anything to do with the Orange or the Black
"'The Orange Order is a fairly orthodox protestant Christian Religious Order'
Perhaps the Black however is nuts.
Indeed many Christians are horrified by the widespread use of ritualistic and superstituous practices in both the Orange and the Black
http://www.nireland.com/evangelicaltruth/index.html
I believe it is a contradiction to call oneself a Christian and have anything to do with the Orange or the Black"
I am not a member of the Loyal Order and so am not privy to any ritualism.
As for the point made by FD the Ulster Conservatives and Unionists do not require prospective candidates to explain away their orangism. A connection with the orange order has no bearing on your prospective candidature both Parties have made this eminantly clear.
DUP scaremongering over the comments of individual members of either party should be seen for what they are. A desperate attempt to shore up their own vote against a new political force which has already overtaken them at the polls.
Boxer
I am responding directly to oneill's comments and thread
I apologise.
Opus Dei is a fully integrated entity of the Catholic Church, and holds no peculiar doctrines of its own. I am acquainted with many members and they are radiant with sanctity and compassion. If membership of Opus Dei is to be an impediment to polical representation, then it's only logical the Catholic Relief Acts be fully repealed. There are already many politicians who are members of the Freemasons and the Loyal Orders. Opus Dei are responsible for the University of Navarre, which is recognized as Spain's number 1 university and one of Europe's best. They are also currently building a €30m Biomedical University (with hospital) in Rome dedicated to cancer research. According to the Guardian: "it has 28 laboratories - a number set to increase - 18 operating theatres, a heliport and 400 beds. It will eventually employ up to 300 researchers and there is fierce competition over its degree courses." Opus Dei has contributed far more to humanity than the 'National Secular Society'.
"The subtext comes from the fact your questions are centred on the prospective candidate to disprove/argue/demonstrate how their personal linkage will not be an organisational liability. There is not a presumption of 'innocence'."
Like Boxer, I think you're looking at it from an activist/party worker pov. There's no "presumption of innocence/guilt" because they haven't done anything wrong. Their membership of the OO is however surely will be a factor in determining whether the electorate at large buy into the concept of "change" being promoted.
Put it in another context, if a homosexual was to put himself up as a prospective candidate for the Conservatives in a socially conservative area, wouldn't it be prudent to ask him or to develop a plan about how possible homophobia on the part of a section of the electorate should be tackled? To do so, wouldn't be a reflection on his own sexual orientation, simply good party strategy.
dona nobis pacem,
Just to confirm, of course a member of Opus Dei can put himself up for election. However, he should be upfront about his membership because it will impact on how he votes on certain issues of moral conscience. The electorate is entitled to know that before he asks for their vote.
Oneill
"I think you're looking at it from an activist/party worker pov."
No I'm looking at it as person who is a member of the OO.
"There's no "presumption of innocence/guilt" because they haven't done anything wrong"
Then why is it brought into a selection process? Why is one organisation singled out?
"Put it in another context,"
I think you would find that your example highlights the difficulty of your approach. A prospective candidate who is homosexual wouldn't be feeling particularly welcome if they have to explain as part of selection process how they'd deal with issues around it - even if it is presented as "it's not us it's the electorate you know."
Would you be comfortable for a minority ethnic candidate in Northern England to be asked as part of a selction process, BNP's very strong round here how you going to deal with the race issue that'll be raised if we select you?
Putting such things in the selection process isn't sensible. Select on merit then examine possible issues and message startegu adaptions required.
No I'm looking at it as person who is a member of the OO.
The attitude of the typical Unionist party activist or politician towards the OO (and the OO's view of itself) is not the same as the wider electorate and if a party expressedly says that it wants to move beyond the normal boundaries then it needs to take that fact into account surely?
Then why is it brought into a selection process? Why is one organisation singled out?
In the unlikely event (at the minute!) say, an Opus Dei, for example, member was up for selection I'd expect the same questions. Any factor which might limit voter appeal should be at least identified and if possible, addressed.
Would you be comfortable for a minority ethnic candidate in Northern England to be asked as part of a selction process, BNP's very strong round here how you going to deal with the race issue that'll be raised if we select you?
I don't know how a minority ethnic candidate would react, it wouldn't be a pleasant sitaution but I still think it would be a valid question. It's 100% certain race will be raised as a question, how does he/she plan to answer that question? It doesn't mean they shouldn't have any less chance of being chosen and actually someone who would be brave enough to tackle the topic head on may actually gain more votes than another candidate who simply buried their head in the sand and pretended it was anon-issue.
Putting such things in the selection process isn't sensible. Select on merit then examine possible issues and message startegu adaptions required.
You're agreeing OO membership could be an issue then. selection on merit. definitely, but that merit can be just as easily proved by good answers to the questions listed.
oneill
There is an inherent tension in your argument you are just trying to ignore. You are saying the party adfopting a new core message that moves away from the traditional but still wanting to retain support/participation from those who are from a traditional background ie OO (even if they have to jump through extra hoops no on else is as part of the selection process).
It's a cake and eat it approach - wanting the new but not wishing to peeve off the old (at least not directly nice things will be said but the sub-text is they are about the past not the future)
It is much more intellectually honest to go you know what, this is where we are doing and it's hard for us to see how OO members fit in. Not the approach of this thread which is to contrive the circumstances to make it the OO members fault for not being able to satisfy extra tests rather than the consequence of a decision to go in a particular direction.
I've little time for a mealy-mouthed approach and this is what is being advocated. If the new path UCUNF wants to go means that OO faces don't fit then so be it. They should have the cojones to be honest but they seem too 'frit' showing a lack of belief in the new position.
"it wouldn't be a pleasant sitaution but I still think it would be a valid question."
Putting people in unpleasant circumstances is not generally considered to be a welcoming environment. think about it minority ethnic candidates get treated differently and subject to tougher questioning than white candidates in your selection process and this doesn't make you feel concerned about your process?
"You're agreeing OO membership could be an issue then."
Maybe but so what it is not a basis for exclusion or for differential treatment. I'm saying your concerns are a post-selection issue not a pre-requisite. Every candidate has strength and weaknesses and each constituency is different.
"selection on merit. definitely, but that merit can be just as easily proved by good answers to the questions listed."
What is a good answer to such questions? If a member of the OO says they support freedom of peaceful assembly at Drumcree does that them out the door even though if you put a mic in front of Sir Reg, Danny or Tom you'd get the same answer?
What if an OO member comes along he says all the nice liberal things but he belongs to a hard-line district involved in a parades dispute? Do they bite the dust by association?
"I've little time for a mealy-mouthed approach and this is what is being advocated. If the new path UCUNF wants to go means that OO faces don't fit then so be it. They should have the cojones to be honest but they seem too 'frit' showing a lack of belief in the new position."
Firstly, the party (and it would appear the Conservatives) apparently have seemingly "reconciled" this "inherent tension" this is only my opinion. Secondly to ban people from the process simply because of their religious/cultural background is the worst kind of hypocritical illiberalism- to ask how those religious and cultural beliefs tie in with supposedly where the party is going may be "mealy-mouthed" in your reckoning, I think it's the most honest approach.
"Putting people in unpleasant circumstances is not generally considered to be a welcoming environment."
I have been to a few interviews where the interviewers have done just that; if their purpose is to check how I react under the pressure that I might face inthe job, then it's a fair approach.
Regarding the questioning of minority candidates, you could argue asking them how they would react to racism/homophobia/sectarianism on the doorstep actually gives them an advantage over "majority" candidates. But the purpose of a good selection process would surely be to throw everyone out of their comfort-zone and as long as that is not done on an exclusive basis, I think it's a valid appraoch.
"What is a good answer to such questions?"
1. My membership of the OO won't affect my ability to provide the service expected of an MP to all sections of the electorate.
2. If there is a conflict between what is expected of me as an Orangeman and what is expected of me as an MP, it is the latter which will get preference.
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