PB : What was the benefit of devolution for Wales ?
HR : It started us down the road to democracy - but more importantly it gave a Welsh dimension to the political debate about everything from health to education to transport to economic development..... It also started showing the « cracks » in the monolithic UK state so the people could see how they had been misled all these years.
PB : What do you think should be the next step ?
HR : I happily argue for the slippery slope to Independence. The first step which we are embarking on now is to convince our people to vote YES in a referendum on what we call « full law-making powers » for our Parliament. (often seen as the same as Scotland has). Then....
Isn’t that exactly the same interpretation True Wales are putting on the referendum and getting a barrelful of abuse for doing so? Now, I know that’s not the official reason given by Plaid Cymru for pursuing more powers, still, it’s interesting to see how the party on the ground are viewing the proposed referendum.
15 comments:
This post demonstrates how real the fears of the Welsh Unionist are .....
..... but your direction to Agence Breton Presse, and it's "the slippery slope to Independence" is priceless.
O'Neill - that IS Plaid's official policy. They've said from the start that the best way to convince Welsh people to vote for independence is to devolve piece by piece so that the people get used to it and ask for more.
The difference between that and True Wales is that "True" Wales are trying to make people think that if they vote Yes then independence will occur come what may. They "forget" to mention that independence will only happen if the people of Wales vote for it.
Plaid want further devolution to convince people that being independent will help them and help Wales. "true" Wales wants us to think that frther devolution will result in independence being forced on us.
The reason I posted this piece (believe me I'm not a regular reader!) was that it was the first time, as far as I'm aware that anyone has come out from the "extra-powers" side and directly said that it is merely a stepping-stone. Why are there not more pieces like this back in wales, am I looking in the worng places or is it not politically expedient for the "Yes" camp to publicise this kind of view?
It is Plaid Cymru policy, they just don't publish it, except in error.
Tricky suckers to pin down, but some are working at it. I have asked the Plaid Assembly Member Bethan Jenkins if she agrees with the comments made by Harri Roberts, the silence is deafening.
Since it's Plaid's official policy (included in their manifesto Stonemason - hardly secret) to campaign for independence then I don't understand the "surprise" that they see the referendum as the next stage of reaching that goal.
I've heard both Dafydd Iwan (party president) and Leanne Wood AM describe devolution as a means to convince more and more people to want more and more powers until they want independence.
As I said before, the difference between Plaid's stance and "True" Wales' lies is that Plaid's aim is to use devolution to convince the majoirty of Welsh people that Wales would be better off as an independent country. "True" Wales are trying to make us think that if we vote for further powers we'll have independence thrust upon us whether we want it or not.
Spokesperson for "True Wales" are we, I have just looked at their web and it seems their aim is to demonstrate....
"That Wales would be worse off as an independent country, much stronger within the Union".
A justifiable position for a Unionist.
This objective, opposition to devolution in order to prevent Plaid Cymru gaining its political objective is, justifiable.
Yep, absolutely justifiable position for an Unionist.
But absolutely nothing to do with the referendum on further powers.
Then it is base politics .....
Your "Plaid want further devolution to convince people that being independent will help them and help Wales."
So further devolution is simply a tool in the armoury of Plaid in the march towards Independence, in conflict, the Unionist should neutralise such weapons, this would be in part the "No campaign".
There is a solution, constitutional, call a referendum for independence now, with the condition that if there is a negative, another similar referendum could not be called for minimum of a century.
I could live with that.
And who are we, the people of 2008, to bind the people of 2058?
Think about how far opinion swang on an Assembly between '79 and '97 and on a Parliament between '97 and '08.
There's absolutely no guarantee that opinion will continue to swing in that direction, I'm not one to predict the future - but your proposal seems to be a desperate attempt to ensure that your prefered position remains even if the rest of Wales want otherwise in 10 years.
No desperation,
Have a referendum on Independence, now, no conditions. Put the Plaid position so that the voters can see where it would be taken, black and white, a Plaid constitution for Wales that everyone could understand.
A referendum is needed when we need to know how the public feels. While that's true in Scotland at the moment, it's not true in Wales. You won't find a single nationalist who would claim that Wales wants independence today, not one.
What the polls show Wales want is a Parliament, so that's what the referendum will be on, to give Wales their voice.
If ever Wales appears to want independence, then they'll have their chance to say so through a referendum then.
Your suggestion of stopping the Wales of 2022, 2032, 2092 or even 2102 from being allowed to vote on what they want for Wales is idiotic. As I said, who are we, the Wales of 2008 to tell the Wales of the future what it can and cannot do?
The heart of my proposition was not to prevent the "Wales of 2022 etc", it was ...
"Put the Plaid position so that the voters can see where it would be taken, black and white, a Plaid constitution for Wales that everyone could understand."
But I think there is less of an issue now that Labour seem about to drop Plaid Cymru, Carwyn Jones the realist is positioning himself for effective leadership without the handicap of separatists.
In the event that the Conservatives win the next election, we live in hope, the whole question of devolution in Wales will be revisited in order that a better fit with the Union can be created.
Um...wasn't it also "with the condition that if there is a negative, another similar referendum could not be called for minimum of a century." or have you changed your mind now?
As for the One Wales Government it depends who Labour elect. Carwyn Jones will stay in the Plaid partnership, no doubt on that one. Huw Lewis on the other hand may well turn to the Lib Dems.
As for the Tories re-looking at devolution remember that the Welsh Tory party want more powers too, while their London counterparts have - after two full blown reviews - decided on another review before they decide on a position(typical Tory decision I must say!)
Of course I changed my mind, your proposition that ".... Wales of the future what it can and cannot do" is absolutely right.
Have you read the Western Mail today re. Carwyn Jones the Unionist.
Does it really matter if it takes time to get devolution right, as long as nobody gets hurt, I can see lots to do with existing powers, but only the rhetoric of "give me more" from Cardiff Bay.
I've read Carwyn's speech yes, not much new in it. He's never been pro-independence remember, and he needs to show that to put a bit of a dampner on Huw Lewis.
The problem with the powers under the GoW 2006 is that it's a complete mess. Look at the spat over the Housing LCO. It's basically turned the Assembly into a two house legilsature, with Parliament becoming an "upper house" - hardly the point of devolution.
We could have gotten devolution right in 2006. The Richards Commission had a very good blueprint, agreed by members of all parties as the best solution. Unfortunately Peter Hain was so worried about his MP's throwing a tantrum he came up with the mess that is the GoW2006.
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