Treacherous shits, the bottom of the dung heap, a shame and an embarrassment to their own country are amongst the kindest terms that I can find to describe them
Helen Mary Jones AM, referring to the same scoundrels in (slightly) more diplomatic language:
"the same backward-looking people who opposed creating the Assembly in the first place".
Let's hope she’s not talking here about the 75% of the Welsh people who didn’t vote for the creation of the Welsh Assembly in the first place... more likely it's "True Wales" who are truly rattling the cages of both of the Welsh political establishment and the Plaid Cymru-dominated blogosphere.
From the True Wales site:
Our Wales is a beautiful, diverse country which belongs to all who live here. There are many versions of 'Welshness', all to be respected and celebrated. We believe in equality and fairness for all citizens, regardless of linguistic preference, ethnicity, faith, political persuasion or gender.
There is no place in our Wales for discrimination or prejudice against any group or country. We value all the settlers who have contributed to our cultural diversity and our shared heritage within the United Kingdom.
Apart from that "shared heritage" malarky, which is obviously an anathema to most nationalists, nothing much to scare the horses there. But a bit further down, you’ll find the two real reasons for why they’re provoking so much contempt in certain quarters:
True Wales believes that further powers for the Assembly will take us down the dangerous road to Welsh independence
"Lies" roar the cybernats who primarily support further powers for the Assembly because they believe it will lead them eventually to their nirvana of er...Welsh independence. If the referendum happens, it will not be on the question of "independence", true- but that’s not what True Wales are saying here. Further powers for the Assembly will lead obviously to futher separation from Westminster, I don’t think anyone will deny that and as has been seen in Scotland, you don’t fight independence by asking for more independence.
And that second reason?
"True Wales looking forward to a strong future within the UK"
Oh no,no,no...you can’t say that- just like Nicole last week, you’re refusing to follow the carefully laid-out script.
Finally, if this is true, then what exactly are the All-Wales Convention afraid of?
"Welsh Ministers" in the Western Mail 26 September 2008, ask us (True Wales) what we ‘are so scared of', and question why we do not simply convey our views to the All-Wales Convention. We would love to make our comments to the ‘open forum’ of the ‘All Wales Convention’. The problem for us is that when one of our members asked to attend the last meeting of the "All Wales Convention", the establishment wouldn’t let our member in, not even simply to hear what was going on.
We might, therefore, ask them what it is that they fear? Why wouldn't they let our member in? It is time for an open, democratic debate in which all of the people of Wales can freely and confidently engage in a balanced discussion about the constitutional future of our country
12 comments:
But the referendum is not about independence O'Neill. And so far every statement or pamphlet by "True" Wales talks about independence and NOT about further powers. They also speak of AM's with their snouts in the trough (when their own Founder, David Davies, uses 5 times as much expenses as the average AM, and 3 times more than even the most expensive AM)
When you come to a referendum, the debate on both side should be mainly about the referendum.
Finally, your 75% argument is quite tires. Firstly it's spin anyway, I could just as easily point out that 76% of people in 1997 did not object to an Assembly. Secondly recent polls shows huge support for the Assembly with only about 15% wanting to go back to the pre-devolution state of affairs (which is what true Wales wants)
The referendum is about the future, and the future for Plaid is independence.
In Alwyn's blog, the post titled "True Wales Untruths" one of the commentators,
"brambling21 said...
I read the story about 'True Wales' ..............
It does beg the question, when will these sad people give up and let us become an independent country with the right to rule ourselves?
..... end of quote.
I am afraid whatever you think the referendum should be about, it is about the future, and the future for Plaid is independence.
So the referendum for Plaid opponents will also be about independence, opposition to it.
Sorry Stonemason but that doesn't make sense. The refernedum will be yes or no to a Welsh pariament.
If things go on to where there is real consideration for independence then there will be a referendum on that then, and the arguments of referendum will be played out then.
What "True" Wales are not saying is that while independence may well happen in the future, it would only happen if Welsh people voted Yes on a poll specificly on that issue. So when they talk of a "slippery slope to independence" they "forget" to add that independence will only happen if the peole of Wales decide, however long into the future, that they actually want it.
"True" Wales are trying to turn THIS referendum into a referendum on independence, and that's a straight lie. (It's not hard to see why they do that, they know that they can't win the argument on blocking a Welsh parliament since polls show most want one, so they're trying to turn the referendum into something it isn't, independence. It's called diversion.)
But the referendum is not about independence O'Neill. And so far every statement or pamphlet by "True" Wales talks about independence and NOT about further powers.
The amount of vitroil heading their direction has been quite unbelievable; they have expressed a subjective opinion, not fact and yet they are being accused of being liars. Increased devolved powers in Scotland has not strengthened the Union and as Unionists they are quite entitled to state that fact. If it doesn't fall in with the program and timetable laid out nicely by the political establishment and media/blog pundits, so what- in a democracy you don't get to manipulate your opponents' arguments into a style or wording acceptable to yourself, you set up your own counter-arguments.
Finally, your 75% argument is quite tires
The only reason it entered the argument, is that a PC representative said that anyway who didn't vote for a Welsh Assembly was, in her words, "backwards". 75% of the electorate didn't vote for an Assembly and by her definition,not Trues Wales or mine, thye must therefore be classified as "backwards"? It was an insulting remark and one which should have had more publicity.
While I wouldn't like calling anyone "backward-looking", the comment is clearly NOT towards the 24% who voted no and the 50% who didn't vote. The clue is in the slur itself, "backward-looking", i.e. wanting to return to how things were pre-1997. So while I still wouldn't use the term itself, it's directed at about 15% not 75%.
If "true" Wales were dealing in facts O'Neill, they could only state that "A Yes vote might lead to a referendum on independence in the future". Saying that this vote will end up in independence is pathetic spin and a lie and so is stating as fact that a Yes vote will end up in independence which will end up in "Soviet-style poverty" (that's a direct quote)
Debate is urgently needed on such important topics(hence the unanimous call from angry bloggers for the Government to get their fingers out of their arses and start debating the matter) but the debate should be on the actual referendum and what the referendum is really about. "True" Wales are yet to make one argument against a Welsh parliament, other than "on previous form, AMs will award themselves an inflation-busting pay rise".
Debate is needed from both sides. Tne Yes side is wrong in not engaging in the debate, the No side is wrong in that they're trying to have the wrong debate and doing it in an underhand despicable manner. That's why people aren't happy with them O'Neill.
Hen Ferchetan your October 28, 2008 8:36 PM.
Whatever we say, 'True Wales' and Plaid Cymru are two groups of people who see the next referendum to be part of the process towards independence. The proposition is one of "stepping stones", and the next stepping stone leads towards the Plaid vision for Wales.
All is fair in love and war, and it seems that this is a political war. The only problem seems to be Plaid, if Plaid were not part of the equation I would guess 'True Wales' might not exist. Take away independence and the need for 'True Wales' would evaporate. But we have a democracy, and you cannot silence democracy, no matter what you might think of the verbosity.
Sorry Stonemason, I don't get your point. "True" Wales is the unofficial No campaign against the referendum. The Yes Campaign will consist of all Welsh Plaid and Lib Dems, most Welsh Labour and a large proportion of Welsh Tories. It will also contain the Church and Chapels of Wales and most of the local Councils.
That's who "True" Wales will be "against", ot just Plaid.
"Take away independence and the need for 'True Wales' would evaporate. "
Well that's clearly untrue. "True" Wales has been set up to oppose the devolution referendum, not independence. They want to return to pre 1997 situation, again nothing to with independence. The only reason they are talking about independence is that they know the Welsh public don;t want to return to pre-1997 and they know that the Welsh public want a Parliament so they are trying to hide the true argument and go on about independence, the only topic where the Welsh public agrees with them even though it has nothing to do with the referendum.
"But we have a democracy, and you cannot silence democracy, no matter what you might think of the verbosity."
Exactly. Thankfully being a democrcy allows the rest of us to point out "true" Wales' lies, spin and mis-direction just as it allows them to use such tactics.
"All is fair in love and war, and it seems that this is a political war."
And don't you find that sad? Instead of a proper debate on the actual referendum "True" Wales are already trying to use spin, misdirections and such to make it a "war". That's not a good thing stonemason, it's a sad thing.
In reverse
your "And don't you find that sad"
..... of course I do, but I understand from the "True Wales" website they have been blocked from attending the all Wales convention.
your ""Take away independence ...... Well that's clearly untrue."
But that is how they see it, it is what I read in blog comments, it is as if there is a independence roadmap and the next referendum is part of it, in fact I am sure that Alwyn ap Huw has made that particular point, and Adam Price at http://www.adampriceblog.org.uk/silence-is-not-an-option independence was definitely in the Plaid list of ultimate aims.
your "That's who "True" Wales will be "against", not just Plaid."
Who knows, only the ballet box will speak truthfully on this.
The major problem might be that the referendum is not called.
"but I understand from the "True Wales" website they have been blocked from attending the all Wales convention."
Hmm...it's a pretty vague accusation even on their own website. Nonames, doesn't even say which meeting it was. They've been publically invited to attend but have refused. Not that there's any point going, the AWC is just a time-wasting tactics.
"The major problem might be that the referendum is not called."
Tell me about it! Thankfully Peter Hain's big fat spoon is no longer able to block it, only problem now is Labour ripping itself apart between London and Cardiff over the issue.
They've been publically invited to attend but have refused.
HF
Post up a link and I'll update my post.
Not that there's any point going, the AWC is just a time-wasting tactics.
Care to expand on that?
The AWC is pointless. It's a delaying tactic to give Labour time to try and sort out their London-Cardiff divisions (Labour MP's don't want referendum, AM's do).
They agreed with Plaid a referendum on or before 2011 with the get out clause of "only if winnable". MP's want to use the get out clause but know that polls shows that a referendum would be won. Their only hope is the AWC, they'll report in late 2009 or even 2010 and then expect to hear the MP's all saying that theres not enough time pre 2011 to make the case for a Yes vote and that the referendum would be lost.
As for "True" Wales' refusal to work with AWC:
"What is David Davies so scared of? His reluctance to engage in the work of the All Wales Convention which got under way during the summer demonstrates a degree of arrogance on his part. What sort of elected politician shies away from arguing his case or listening to the views of others in an open forum"
I note what the "True" Wales website says of their member being refused entry, but it's a vague accusation, no time, place, names. And AWC has public consultation meetings anyway, so no-one can be refused entry.
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