Ignited of Redemption’s Son is a regular commentator on here and although I think we come from the different end of the spectrum on certain issues, his comments and own posts are always well-thought out and worth a read.
Anyway he “came out” as a member of the Orange Order at the weekend and has promised to give a running commentary on the summer’s events at the various parades and other activities, he and his lodge are involved in over the summer.
For personal and wider political reasons, I’m, at best, ambivalent about the worth of the Order. Those personal reasons will remain personal, but I believe that the OO’s activities- despite their loyalty to the Crown, their pride in their British identity and the invaluable support they provided during the IRA's campaign to the small beleagured Unionist communities along the border and elsewhere, have ultimately damaged the Union.
But I’m sure that’ll be a theme that Ignited will be looking at over the next few weeks and I’m looking forward to seeing both an intelligent insider's view of what goes on inside the organisation and also at what kind of reaction they provoke within the wider community.
23 comments:
Those personal reasons will remain personal, but I believe that the OO’s activities- despite their loyalty to the Crown, their pride in their British identity and the invaluable support they provided during the IRA's campaign to the small beleagured Unionist communities along the border and elsewhere, have ultimately damaged the Union.
Ironically enough, the Orange Order were not overly keen on the union in the first place.
Like yourself though, looking forward to the series of posts from Ignited
>>I’m, at best, ambivalent about the worth of the Order<<
I'm not, they are to Catholics what the NF/BNP are to Asians. I'm sure there are many nice individuals, in fact I know there are amongst them. As an organisation though they spread hate and fear.
Civil and religious rights, or whatever bogus reasons they parade their hatred of Catholics for. Should not just be for Protestants.
A friend of mine is a Glaswegian Catholic (and staunch Unionist) who has commented in the past about being frightened as a boy by Orange Order bigots.
It is all a bit bemusing to those of us from England and Wales. We seemed to have got over our sectarianism some centuries earlier, what we have now being largely imported from either Ireland or Scotland.
It does seem though that the nationalists have done a better PR job though. Deliberately provoking a reaction by marching kids through a Protestant area to get to a particular entrance to a Catholic School rather than simply using the other entrance makes more sympathetic TV than burly men with drums.
To paraphrase Churchill, the bad PR can be half-way around the world before the fuller truth can even get its boots on.
Deliberately provoking a reaction by marching kids through a Protestant area to get to a particular entrance to a Catholic School rather than simply using the other entrance makes more sympathetic TV than burly men with drums.
wildgoose, they were bringing their kids to school. Imagine what an outsider would think reading that comment. Im sure they would ponder a number of things, A) Protestant and Catholic Areas ? B) Bringing kids through a particular area to get to a school is considered provocation. Provocation for what? How is it provocation?
Wildgoose
Why do you think your staunchly Catholic Unionist friend was so frightened? Perhaps as a child he believed the PR men?
And are you so deluded as to believe that in fact the OO are not a hateful triumphalist racist anti-Catholic swaggering bunch of bully boys, and it is really just a bad PR job? C'mon!
>>Deliberately provoking a reaction by marching kids through a Protestant area to get to a particular entrance to a Catholic School rather than simply using the other entrance<<
That is a disgraceful and fundamentally ignorant position to take. Or perhaps all the pejorative language used by your Unionist friends about Nationalists has led you to believe that they really are untermenschen. And would force such trauma on 5 year old girls................Like being called dirty f...in Hoors, bags of piss thrown at them and nail and blast bombs.
Sure those PR men are to blame.
I freely admit that I truly don't understand what happens in Northern Ireland - it's an alien mentality to an English perspective.
I have 3 children, a boy and two girls. The youngest is a girl aged 6. And as a father there is no fucking way that I would have deliberately marched my little girl through that environment just to make a political point when there was a perfectly good and closer alternative entrance.
So like I said, (and take note that I am no longer a Unionist), I really don't understand the mentality that would deliberately do that just because it was good PR.
That's not defending the Orange Order.
That's taking the attitude "a plague on both your houses".
O'Neill,
Thanks for the publicity and I'm as intrigued by perceptions of the OO than anyone. I'm in a mind to read you post as 'The OO are to be commended for their role in galvinising beleaguered communities during the troubles but now that the troubles are over they are a hindrence'
Also Kloot the history of the OO regarding the union etc is very interesting. There also used to be Irish language lodges that died out with the language itself.
Wildgoose, understand the point you were trying to make that some people go out of their way to get offended. One of the prominent republicans from my area travelled all over the country to protest about parades 'infringing on his human rights'; even though he traveled 60+ miles out of his way to be so offended.
Tony, the OO by nature is anti-Catholicism. Racist? Wow, I never knew that.
http://www.ulster.ac.uk/news/images/africas-orange-order.jpg
Ignited
Is that the best you can do? You'll be throwing in the native Americans next. Do you really think that these minuscule offshoots of the OO teach the same bigotry as in the UK. By stating that the OO is not anti-Catholic simply leaves you open to ridicule. And the going out of the way to be offended is doubly ridiculous. The apartheid system in SA was offensive, by your rules it would only be blacks in areas affected who could complain about it.
>>there is no fucking way that I would have deliberately marched my little girl through that environment just to make a political point when there was a perfectly good and closer alternative entrance.<<
Well the entrance they had used for generations at the little girls school was less than 5 mins walk away, the alternative was perhaps 20 mins walk away. So you really need to check your facts. Also the hallmark of Unionism in Ireland has always been about bullying, relying on Nationalists to lie down I suppose. Those days are gone, but it must have been agonising for those parents to decide to teach their children right from wrong. And that running away from bullying and intimidation is not the answer. I am a father of four so I do not take the situation lightly.
Perhaps instead of wondering why people would stand up for their right to freely and safely walk their children to school. You might question the mentality that allows all ages(from Grannies to teens) and those traveling from outside that community, why so desperate to unleash hate-filled bile on little girls. You really ought to read Susan McKay's 'Northern protestants' it will open your eyes. It shocked me, and I'm speaking as someone who has personally and had family members suffer sectarian violence.
"the hallmark of Unionism in Ireland has always been about bullying, relying on Nationalists to lie down I suppose."
Please remember that I am giving an English perspective. And from this side of the Irish Sea it looks like a slow-burning low-level Civil War in which both sides are equally culpable - although only one side regularly bombed, killed and maimed ordinary innocent English citizens.
You are every bit as blinkered as any Orange Order extremist.
I can make one point though. The equal and opposite equivalent to the original Stormont Government was the priest-ridden semi-Theocracy that was the early Republic of Ireland, whose President de Valera went and publicly signed the condolences book at the German Embassy for the death of Hitler at the same time as the cinema newsreels were showing the horrors of the Nazi extermination camps. A "free country" in which Protestants were denied jobs in schools and hospitals and generally suffered far more bigotry than Catholics in Northern Ireland.
Although that is not to excuse the gerrymandering and lack of full adult suffrage that acted to disenfranchise Catholic voters there either. (I have read the records of the debates after the Second World War when suffrage was limited to adult rate-payers and their spouses only). Of course you probably won't recognise that when the Civil Rights marches by young people wanting the vote started, they included young people across the divide. I presume that doesn't fit your world view.
I started to say the Republic has moved on, but then I remembered the bottling and near-rioting that took place there a couple of years back when a group from Northern Ireland attempted to walk in Dublin.
I do believe you said that "running away from bullying and intimidation is not the answer". Hmmm. Now I wonder if that explains some of the reactions of members of the Orange Order?
Of course you won't see that. In you're blinkered world view Nationalists are pure and saintly whilst Protestants, Unionists and the Orange Order are all evil bigots.
Now where do I, an atheist non-Unionist non-member of the Orange Order fit in? Oh that's right. I'm English. All the excuse the nationalist community has ever needed to hate and despise me and mine.
What both sides have to do isn't to start talking it's to start listening.
The trouble is, whilst England continues to bankroll your petty squabbles by propping up your economy that isn't going to happpen in a hurry.
If Scotland vote for independence in 2010 then Great Britain ceases to exist and Northern Ireland is in a constitutional limbo, the UK being Great Britain and Northern Ireland. No Great Britain, no UK for Northern Ireland either.
You'd better start listening to each other and trying to understand each other's positions.
Because you might find you've got less time than you think.
Thanks for the publicity and I'm as intrigued by perceptions of the OO than anyone. I'm in a mind to read you post as 'The OO are to be commended for their role in galvinising beleaguered communities during the troubles but now that the troubles are over they are a hindrence'
No problem re the publicity, I think it’s an important thing you’re doing here blogging on your experiences. Regarding how you’ve analysed my post, no, that’s not really what I’m trying to say.
The OO provided and still provides a central focus and support role for those communities. The fact that it is generally the halls in these areas and not the more contentious ones in say, Portadown or Belfast which are being targetted by the arson attacks is a pertinent one- the strategy appears to remind the small minority protestant population exactly how vulnerable their position is. The same effect could be achieved by attacking, as in the past (Darkley) their churches and schools but by concentrating on the Orange Halls, there is less of a negative effect in the local and wider media….back to republicans being a bit more pr-savvy again I suppose.
But the OO as an institution and in its wider context- I’m ambivalent.
You admitted that the OO is anti-catholic by nature, but I don’t see why that necessary has to be the case for a protestant organisation even in the sectarian cockpit of Ulster. The Reformation, for me is the triumph of personal conscience over the institutionalised corrupt and venial religious structures of the time- the fact that anyone has the right to directly deal with God rather than going through a third party. Speaking even as an atheist, that and the effects which later followed via the Englightenment were and remain a positive. Outside NI, protestantism has been a liberating and democratic force- look at the majority protestant countries of Europe today; Holland, the Scandanavian countries and even Germany. A very long way around to ask the question, why must Orangeism be a negative anti-catholic force and not a positive pro-protestant one?
I haven’t even touched on the subject of the OO’s “contribution” to the Union or parades yet, but rather than writing a 10,000 word diatribe, I’ll let you deal with this first fundamental point.
Wildgoose
Having peddled lies about the shameful treatment of 5yr old girls on their way to school. You are now ludicrously peddling more anti-Irish nonsense whilst proclaiming that you and indeed England are neutral arbitrators of those thick Paddies slogging it out. make your mind up.
>>You are every bit as blinkered as any Orange Order extremist.<<
And you have worked this out how? Perhaps you are annoyed that I dared contradict the lies you were peddling repeatedly concerning Holy Cross girls school. And this is where the discussion leaves the OO(wonder why) and goes onto attack Ireland.
>>The equal and opposite equivalent to the original Stormont Government was the priest-ridden semi-Theocracy that was the early Republic of Ireland<<
Priest-ridden? Talk about pejorative language! The Catholic church was for most of the 19th and 20th century on good terms with the British authorities. They acted as counters, often to progressive Nationalist ideology. They successfully controlled the people in much of Ireland. It has taken the best part of her existence to free herself of the Catholic churches unwieldy influence. Ireland is far less influenced by religion than by say the gay-bashing flat-earthers in Irish Unionism.
To state that the government of Ireland was the equal and equivalent of Stormont merely serves to show your ignorance. There was a fully fledged apartheid type two tier statelet in the north, where Catholics knew their place. That place was for the most part at the back of the bus. Please show me evidence to back up your assertion regarding the same in the Republic?
>>President de Valera went and publicly signed the condolences book at the German Embassy for the death of Hitler<<
Terrible thing to do. Ever hear of the deposed English King and Mrs Simpson and the Nazi's? or the British giving away the sovereignty of Austria and Czechoslovakia to the Nazi's?
>>A "free country" in which Protestants were denied jobs in schools and hospitals and generally suffered far more bigotry than Catholics in Northern Ireland.<<
Although most of what you say borders on idiocy, this really takes the biscuit. This is right up their with other phantom claims of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Again I invite you to provide evidence!
>>I remembered the bottling and near-rioting that took place there a couple of years back when a group from Northern Ireland attempted to walk in Dublin.<<
Ahhh..... the group of bigots mascarading as a victims group(for Protestants only), determinedly carrying banners depicting images of Unionist death squad members. Some of whom who had participated in the bombing and killing of dozens of Dubliners. The attacks were wrong, however eedjits will always attract other eedjits.
>>In you're blinkered world view Nationalists are pure and saintly whilst Protestants, Unionists and the Orange Order are all evil bigots.<<
Wise up! The world view of Unionism is as you say, and of their own doing. Nationalists seem to be willing to account for their part in the troubles/war, their culpability. Can the same be said for the vast majority of Unionism? They deny any involvement despite overwhelming evidence to their dirty hands. The hypocrisy is staggering.
>>I'm English. All the excuse the nationalist community has ever needed to hate and despise me and mine.<<
I'm sorry but this is just silly. The relationship between the English and Irish has never been better. You come across as some paranoid schizo with chips on both shoulders.
>>whilst England continues to bankroll your petty squabbles by propping up your economy that isn't going to happen in a hurry.<<
First off, these petty squabbles that you are on about were enough for you to peddle outright lies, nonsense and delusional fantasies. Secondly Once Scotland and England stop funding intransigent Unionists only then will a proper and fit resolution take place. Giving Unionism a permanent veto hasn't worked
>>You'd better start listening to each other and trying to understand each other's positions.<<
Ahhhhhhhh..........Sense at last. As good a place to finish as any.
Oneil
>>You admitted that the OO is anti-catholic by nature, but I don’t see why that necessary has to be the case for a protestant organisation even in the sectarian cockpit of Ulster.<<
Actually I think he tried to deny the anti-Catholic bit. However I agree, a pro-Protestant organisation would not bother anyone.
I peddled no lies about 5 year old girls on their way to school. I never denied what happened, I merely questioned the mentality not only of Orange Order bigots (my preceding comment) but also of the kind of parents who would deliberately subject their children to such abuse.
As for my comments about Ireland, I said Priest-ridden, You said "They successfully controlled the people in much of Ireland."
I don't see that much difference between these positions.
Finally, you say that only when we stop funding Unionism (i.e. Northern Ireland) "will a proper and fit resolution take place". I would suggest we are in agreement with this one as well.
However you are assuming that the Republic will automatically want re-unification.
Is it really wise for you be so sure?
At the moment, the restless, angry and aggressively violent population is a problem for the UK - but ultimately we are talking a population that comprises 1.7 million people out of over 60 million.
The same problem with the Republic would be 1.7 million compared to a population of 4.3 million and an economic basket-case with a correspondingly much smaller economy in the Republic to support it.
So what happens if (when?) the Republic decides it just isn't worth destroying their cultural and religious unity, and wrecking the economy they have finally managed to build, all for unification with two groups of people in the North, one of whom rejects their authority and the other of which is like a relic from their past?
Just asking...
>>I peddled no lies about 5 year old girls on their way to school.<<
Aye you did, repeatedly, despite me telling you otherwise. You kept banging on about an alternative closer entrance. Painting the picture of those skanky fenians using their five year olds as cannon fodder. Your repeated partisan position was starkly at odds with your claims of neutrality. hence the use of strong terms to make you face up to the facts of the matter.
>>As for my comments about Ireland, I said Priest-ridden, You said "They successfully controlled the people in much of Ireland."
I don't see that much difference between these positions.<<
Agreed, but big difference in language though. Don't you think? Oneil recently(perhaps quite rightly) pulled me up for using the term Butchers apron for the union flag. Language has connotations usually used pejoratively, as in this case. Oh and Ireland is as secular as Scotland, although perhaps not as England. Openly gay, women, priests/bishops might still be a step to far. And contrast it(Irish society) with fundamentalist Protestantism in the North of Ireland. Conservative catholics are really their allies, especially in terms of fighting abortion. Anyhow I digress.
As far as Irish reunification is involved. It will take the belligerence of the majority of the Unionist population that to stop it working. I think quite a lot of Protestant eyes have been opened these past ten years or so. All the certainties and lies told to them(by the Brits and their own leaders) have enlightened them and perhaps shocked them, and sharing the island with their fellow Irishmen might not be as bad a prospect as once feared.
There doesn't even have to be full unification, mature societies can usually be flexible with the reigns of power. Even the OO would have a free run, once they ditch the hate and become a more Pro-Prod type group.
Tony, the OO by nature is anti-Catholicism. Racist? Wow, I never knew that.
Tony
That was Ignited's reply to your earlier comment. I took it as acknowledging that by its own definition it's anti-catholic.
So are you denying there was an alternative entrance that wouldn't have involved exposing terrified 5 year old girls to a baying hate-filled mob? Because in one of your other comments you admitted that such an entrance actually did exist. So which is it?
Then you make the comment "As far as Irish reunification is involved. It will take the belligerence of the majority of the Unionist population that to stop it working" as if the Unionist population are to be allowed no say, and having earlier made the comment that "running away from bullying and intimidation is not the answer." There's nothing like consistency, and er, that's nothing like consistency.
And then finally there's the comment "There doesn't even have to be full unification". Wow! That's big of you! Except... who's going to prop up the Northern Ireland economy in the meanwhile then?
Back in the real world problems aren't solved by wishful thinking.
>>So are you denying there was an alternative entrance that wouldn't have involved exposing terrified 5 year old girls to a baying hate-filled mob? Because in one of your other comments you admitted that such an entrance actually did exist. So which is it?<<
Are you for real? I have covered this in spades. You repeatedly claimed that the alternative entrance was closer, when there is about a 15 minute difference in walking. Having repeatedly explained that, why would I then claim there was no alternative? Here is a clue, the key word in your failure to understand the English language is CLOSER, now get a grip!
>>Back in the real world problems aren't solved by wishful thinking.<<
*groans*
You asked me to give a view, I gave it. Simple!
O'Neill,
Coincidently enough Kensei brought up roughly the same point over on RS about the OO being in particular focused on Catholocism. My answer back was simply putting it in the context of the battle within Christianity at the time of the Orders foundation; between the Protestant reformers and the Catholic church. It is why the Catholic faith is singled out, although the Orange also wants to convert any other faith to the reformed one. The OO does not set out to persecute other religions in the same way protestantism was persecuted by the church of Rome; it firmly believes in civil and relgious liberty for all - not just the prodiban!
I also take the point in being pro-protestant; again I think it down to PR failings more than actual substance. My own lodge has an Ulster-American society which promotes the civil liberties aspect of the OO and the connections with the American founding fathers; a lot of the same philosophical/politcal theory was exported post 1690 and as you said is reflected in modern Europe.
Tony,
Why would I deny the anti-Catholicism? If your 'pro' something your always against something. If your pro-protestant you are anti-non-prod
"You repeatedly claimed that the alternative entrance was closer, when there is about a 15 minute difference in walking."
No I haven't. Care to show where I repeatedly made such a claim. No? Because you can't. The point I made was about what kind of parents would subject their children to such abuse. Apparently according to you it's the ones that wanted to save a few minutes walk. Like I said in the first place, pretty twisted priorities...
Of course, given your intimate knowledge of the local geography (which I freely bow to) perhaps you were one of the individuals who went around the houses of parents with kids at the school "persuading" them to subject their children to this abuse by using one entrance instead of another?
And of course you still haven't answered my question. What if the Republic decides it doesn't want re-unification with the North? Whatever happens then?
Ignited,
My own lodge has an Ulster-American society which promotes the civil liberties aspect of the OO and the connections with the American founding fathers; a lot of the same philosophical/political theory was exported post 1690 and as you said is reflected in modern Europe.
Exactly the kind of positive thing I’m talking about, you really should publicise this more. Although ironically on many social issues (religion in schooling, abortion etc) you (the OO) have almost identical views now to the RC hierarchy….and that is most definitely not promoting civil liberties!!!!
If your 'pro' something your always against something. If your pro-protestant you are anti-non-prod
Not addressed to me, but I think it’s all a question of emphasis. If I use the analogy of a football supporter…someone supports Spurs, most probably he dislikes Arsenal because of that- but what is more important for him, his love for Spurs or his dislike/hatred of Arsenal? Not a perfect comparison but you can see where I’m coming from.
Regarding parades, I was thinking about this along the line of self-marshalling, more sensitivity to residents’ opinions, controlling the hangers-on etc and then I thought:
“What is exactly the point of the parades full stop?”
Why are they so important to the OO?
The British link that I mentioned. I asked you a question on your own blog about your motivation for joining the Order, political or religious? You answered religious and I would really hope that the Order moves more in that direction in the future. I know that you’ll agree that it is completely immaterial the religion (or none) of whomever we attract to the Unionist cause. But by the OO (in a NI and W of Scotland context anyway) identifying so closely to a very narrow definition of Britishness, we risk losing potential votes in that wider electorate. And in all honesty, the present Queen despite her many qualities, is not the Defender of the Faith her predecessors were and Protestantism in Ulster would survive in today’s ROI….the British link is not required for that core target of the OO to be achieved.
Wildgoose
Game over............You are not the full shilling. Think rape victims and how the dirty hoors must have deserved it, because they chose to go to THAT nightclub, or wear that skirt. THAT IS YOUR MENTALITY HERE.
You even seem to be enjoying blaming the parents for those utter scum abusing those young girls.........Shame on you!
Ignited
>>If your 'pro' something your always against something. If your pro-protestant you are anti-non-prod<<
The part I can understand is utter nonsense. To be for something means you are ALWAYS against something else is utter bollocks. The last bit could have been written by wildgoose, for all the sense it made
Oneil
Yes, it's Game Over all right. You still haven't answered my question. You have studiously ignored my condemnation of BOTH the Bigots AND the Parents who would subject their own children to such bigotry regardless of psychological harm to THEIR OWN CHILDREN, all in a pathetic effort to imply I have said something I have not.
Game, Set and Match to me I think.
>>I think.<<
If only you would/could/would! As evidentially you can't.
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